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	<title>Comments on: Heart-breakingly inept “privilege” “discussion”</title>
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		<title>By: Turgid</title>
		<link>http://dwighttowers.wordpress.com/2012/10/11/heart-breakingly-inept-privilege-discussion/#comment-5629</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Turgid]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Dec 2012 19:43:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dwighttowers.wordpress.com/?p=5441#comment-5629</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well, what was the point JP?  
Everyone I got the time to speak to who&#039;d been in the workshop was mighty confused and less clear about the issues than when they&#039;d arrived.  Clearly this wasn&#039;t a full survey, but please do share your understandings from the workshop.  I was genuinely interested and want(ed) to learn.  

Tabitha&#039;s sentence starting &quot;What we feel we are seeing..&quot; is spot on and really important.  The next sentence however I don&#039;t understand at all, sounds like something out of Turbulence magazine!  That Dwight misrepresents the amount of time or identity-label you fall into is a bit irrelevant (though rude) - we need to take time to prepare our workshops for them to be useful.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, what was the point JP?<br />
Everyone I got the time to speak to who&#8217;d been in the workshop was mighty confused and less clear about the issues than when they&#8217;d arrived.  Clearly this wasn&#8217;t a full survey, but please do share your understandings from the workshop.  I was genuinely interested and want(ed) to learn.  </p>
<p>Tabitha&#8217;s sentence starting &#8220;What we feel we are seeing..&#8221; is spot on and really important.  The next sentence however I don&#8217;t understand at all, sounds like something out of Turbulence magazine!  That Dwight misrepresents the amount of time or identity-label you fall into is a bit irrelevant (though rude) &#8211; we need to take time to prepare our workshops for them to be useful.</p>
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		<title>By: dwighttowers</title>
		<link>http://dwighttowers.wordpress.com/2012/10/11/heart-breakingly-inept-privilege-discussion/#comment-5597</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[dwighttowers]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Nov 2012 23:08:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dwighttowers.wordpress.com/?p=5441#comment-5597</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hello,

thanks for taking the time to read the post, and leave such a lengthy comment.  I won&#039;t respond point by point, since we are both very busy, and both of us will be dead a long time.

You claim that being critical of other people&#039;s events and then going home and imagining how I&#039;d have done it “ meant [I] missed the whole thing.”
Er, no.  I &lt;em&gt;multi-tasked&lt;/em&gt;.

&quot;woah, sounds like you had already decided to hate on it if you&#039;re writing notes at the back just as we started to talk.&quot;

Well, before you started to talk, you could have invited people to turn to someone near them and get “warmed up.”  Activation phenomena, much?    You also very carefully don&#039;t quote the very next sentence in my blog post - “I scribble down “Ok, I’m wrong”” , since this would undercut your argument as to how open-minded I was prepared to be.  I was prepared to be reflexive, change my opinon.  But it&#039;s far more convenient for me to be a strawman, no?

&quot;Maybe instead you would have thought, oh, she&#039;s just said she&#039;s a working mother, she&#039;s fitting in this workshop on her spare sunday, i won&#039;t expect her to have spent months preparing the perfect workshop&quot;.
Fair point – I should not have used terminology like “full-time activist.”  I won&#039;t start playing games about which of us is busier or more oppressed.  Suffice to say, if you are going to have the privilege of having 40 people come to pay attention, then it&#039;s rude to deliver dross.
You are also however, setting up a totally phony opposition here – I did not expect “the perfect workshop.”  I just expected one that went beyond two people talking about their article, followed by comment tennis followed by still-too big groups of people in which the loudest dominated and others were bewildered.  Clearly this was totally unreasonable, classist and patriarchal of me. So it goes.

“but wrote angry notes to your friend then angry posts ages later.”
it would be helpful if you checked the date of publication of my blog post. It was published on October 11th.  Your workshop was on October 7th.  That does not constitute &quot;ages.&quot;  Perhaps you are confused, thinking that because you have only just seen it, then the blog post did not yet exist?  Sort of Bishop Berkely and the tree falling in the forest maybe?

“I&#039;m not sure how you knew the article was dire without reading it.”
Copies of Shift (the f is silent)&#039;s last issue were on sale at the Kraak gallery.  I bought one (more fool me). I read your article on the day.   Simples.

&quot;The workshop you suggest is an interesting take on the sort we are increasingly seeing, which are obsessed with trigger warnings and internal dynamics of mundane categories of power, and less about understanding capital and our multifaceted and multilayered resistances to it.&quot;

So, one trigger warning means I am “obsessed””? Whatever you need to tell yourself, comrade.  
And I would be entertained to know what you actually mean by “multifaceted and multilayered resistances”.  Is that the writing of turgid and utterly forgettable sub-academese in magazines nobody reads? Or is that sitting in a field surrounded by cops and calling it the eco-revolution?  Or squatting?  Or flashmobs?  Maybe I should start reading SchNews again?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello,</p>
<p>thanks for taking the time to read the post, and leave such a lengthy comment.  I won&#8217;t respond point by point, since we are both very busy, and both of us will be dead a long time.</p>
<p>You claim that being critical of other people&#8217;s events and then going home and imagining how I&#8217;d have done it “ meant [I] missed the whole thing.”<br />
Er, no.  I <em>multi-tasked</em>.</p>
<p>&#8220;woah, sounds like you had already decided to hate on it if you&#8217;re writing notes at the back just as we started to talk.&#8221;</p>
<p>Well, before you started to talk, you could have invited people to turn to someone near them and get “warmed up.”  Activation phenomena, much?    You also very carefully don&#8217;t quote the very next sentence in my blog post &#8211; “I scribble down “Ok, I’m wrong”” , since this would undercut your argument as to how open-minded I was prepared to be.  I was prepared to be reflexive, change my opinon.  But it&#8217;s far more convenient for me to be a strawman, no?</p>
<p>&#8220;Maybe instead you would have thought, oh, she&#8217;s just said she&#8217;s a working mother, she&#8217;s fitting in this workshop on her spare sunday, i won&#8217;t expect her to have spent months preparing the perfect workshop&#8221;.<br />
Fair point – I should not have used terminology like “full-time activist.”  I won&#8217;t start playing games about which of us is busier or more oppressed.  Suffice to say, if you are going to have the privilege of having 40 people come to pay attention, then it&#8217;s rude to deliver dross.<br />
You are also however, setting up a totally phony opposition here – I did not expect “the perfect workshop.”  I just expected one that went beyond two people talking about their article, followed by comment tennis followed by still-too big groups of people in which the loudest dominated and others were bewildered.  Clearly this was totally unreasonable, classist and patriarchal of me. So it goes.</p>
<p>“but wrote angry notes to your friend then angry posts ages later.”<br />
it would be helpful if you checked the date of publication of my blog post. It was published on October 11th.  Your workshop was on October 7th.  That does not constitute &#8220;ages.&#8221;  Perhaps you are confused, thinking that because you have only just seen it, then the blog post did not yet exist?  Sort of Bishop Berkely and the tree falling in the forest maybe?</p>
<p>“I&#8217;m not sure how you knew the article was dire without reading it.”<br />
Copies of Shift (the f is silent)&#8217;s last issue were on sale at the Kraak gallery.  I bought one (more fool me). I read your article on the day.   Simples.</p>
<p>&#8220;The workshop you suggest is an interesting take on the sort we are increasingly seeing, which are obsessed with trigger warnings and internal dynamics of mundane categories of power, and less about understanding capital and our multifaceted and multilayered resistances to it.&#8221;</p>
<p>So, one trigger warning means I am “obsessed””? Whatever you need to tell yourself, comrade.<br />
And I would be entertained to know what you actually mean by “multifaceted and multilayered resistances”.  Is that the writing of turgid and utterly forgettable sub-academese in magazines nobody reads? Or is that sitting in a field surrounded by cops and calling it the eco-revolution?  Or squatting?  Or flashmobs?  Maybe I should start reading SchNews again?</p>
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		<title>By: Robyn</title>
		<link>http://dwighttowers.wordpress.com/2012/10/11/heart-breakingly-inept-privilege-discussion/#comment-5596</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Robyn]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Nov 2012 14:03:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dwighttowers.wordpress.com/?p=5441#comment-5596</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Could you give examples of the &quot;internal dynamics of mundane categories of power&quot; you refer to?  I&#039;m not sure what you actually mean.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Could you give examples of the &#8220;internal dynamics of mundane categories of power&#8221; you refer to?  I&#8217;m not sure what you actually mean.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: JP</title>
		<link>http://dwighttowers.wordpress.com/2012/10/11/heart-breakingly-inept-privilege-discussion/#comment-5594</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[JP]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2012 12:50:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dwighttowers.wordpress.com/?p=5441#comment-5594</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Oh my fucking god... I was in that workshop/discussion too, and you monu-fucking-mentally missed the point didn&#039;t you?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh my fucking god&#8230; I was in that workshop/discussion too, and you monu-fucking-mentally missed the point didn&#8217;t you?</p>
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		<title>By: tabitha</title>
		<link>http://dwighttowers.wordpress.com/2012/10/11/heart-breakingly-inept-privilege-discussion/#comment-5593</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[tabitha]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2012 12:00:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dwighttowers.wordpress.com/?p=5441#comment-5593</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hey, thanks for this. It&#039;s always useful to get feedback from events put on. I see you&#039;ve put a lot of thought into how you would structure your own workshop, and I like some of the polemics of the article. However, there are some wonderfully illustrative points here that really reinforce the points we were trying to make about Privilege as a Political Lens. (www.shiftmag.co.uk - it&#039;s not online yet but buy a copy if you&#039;d like to read further or have informed criticism!)
As one of the facilitators I&#039;m sorry that you misunderstood what the workshop was going to be about. It sounds as if you expected something else entirely and when that didn&#039;t happen, as you say:  &quot;When I go to other people’s events, I seethe about the “people at the front playing comment tennis with their friends in the audience” ness. And then I go home and imagine how it COULD be done… So it goes.&quot; Seems like doing that meant you missed the whole thing. That&#039;s a shame because maybe if you weren&#039;t, and you listened, there might be some more things to learn or think about?
Although as you also say &quot;So, it started more or less on time, with two facilitators introducing themselves and starting to talk. Just as I write “really innovative format” on a bit of paper and show it to my friend,&quot;...woah, sounds like you had already decided to hate on it if you&#039;re writing notes at the back just as we started to talk. If you&#039;d listened to the introduction you maybe couldn&#039;t have made such sweeping assumptions such as we were &quot;full time activists&quot;. Maybe instead you would have thought, oh, she&#039;s just said she&#039;s a working mother, she&#039;s fitting in this workshop on her spare sunday, i won&#039;t expect her to have spent months preparing the perfect workshop&quot;....cos, you know, there is a lot of room for imperfection and uncertainty and inexpertise. what i feel a lot less tolerant of are comments such as  &quot;people who can be “full-time activists”, and who have the social/cultural capital to get their boring articles published and then to – without challenge – deliver staggeringly lousy “workshops.”&quot;. Because that&#039;s using something completely fabricated in order to try to win points to win an argument....via your published article on a blog (which entails a different amount of social/cultural capital and in many ways is less likely to be challenged.)
Indeed, we were challenged. which is of course fine. We were challenged on the ideas we were presenting, which, somehow, almost unfathomably, was missed by you. We do put it a lot better in print though, because it&#039;s a medium I feel a lot more comfortable in, it&#039;s a different sort of &quot;privilege&quot; to think and feel quickly on your feet. In fact, you relate to it in your comments and the fact you didn&#039;t challenge us at the time but wrote angry notes to your friend then angry posts ages later. I&#039;m not sure how you knew the article was dire without reading it. Maybe in the way you knew we were full time activists and knew what we were trying to do in the workshop. That way being, basically, wrong.
The spectrum thing was a gamble. As I said, it&#039;s ok to gamble sometimes isn&#039;t it? To try new ways of doing workshops. Again, it seems this misfired with you. I&#039;m pleased that most people we spoke to afterwards understood it. You say &quot;Fuck me if it isn’t the most pointless (actually, actively counter-productive) tokenistic and nonsensical spectrum of all time.
We were to put ourselves on a line of “privilege” from least to most. That’s it. No then “talk to the person you’re nearest”. No problematising of the concept of privilege. No other spectra. Nothing.&quot;
Well, this was exactly the point we were making. So you DID get the point, but only because you thought you were criticising what we were trying to do. So I guess that it did work in some way. What we were illustrating was the tokenism and nonsense of the concept of privilege. It was MEANT to be a piss take, and to demonstrate this pointless endeavour. Our article is all about the problematising of the concept of privilege and the importance of intersectionality. What we feel we are seeing in much of the non-hierarchical movement (that you increasingly have no time for, maybe for similar reasons) is a simplification of politics and a fascination with point scoring for oppression. The workshop you suggest is an interesting take on the sort we are increasingly seeing, which are obsessed with trigger warnings and internal dynamics of mundane categories of power, and less about understanding capital and our multifaceted and multilayered resistances to it. 
So, again, thanks for taking the time to think about what you thought we were presenting. I look forward to your response to our actual article when you read it. And I&#039;m genuinely appreciative of the Kurt Vonnegut references in your text. 
For love and Revolution.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey, thanks for this. It&#8217;s always useful to get feedback from events put on. I see you&#8217;ve put a lot of thought into how you would structure your own workshop, and I like some of the polemics of the article. However, there are some wonderfully illustrative points here that really reinforce the points we were trying to make about Privilege as a Political Lens. (www.shiftmag.co.uk &#8211; it&#8217;s not online yet but buy a copy if you&#8217;d like to read further or have informed criticism!)<br />
As one of the facilitators I&#8217;m sorry that you misunderstood what the workshop was going to be about. It sounds as if you expected something else entirely and when that didn&#8217;t happen, as you say:  &#8220;When I go to other people’s events, I seethe about the “people at the front playing comment tennis with their friends in the audience” ness. And then I go home and imagine how it COULD be done… So it goes.&#8221; Seems like doing that meant you missed the whole thing. That&#8217;s a shame because maybe if you weren&#8217;t, and you listened, there might be some more things to learn or think about?<br />
Although as you also say &#8220;So, it started more or less on time, with two facilitators introducing themselves and starting to talk. Just as I write “really innovative format” on a bit of paper and show it to my friend,&#8221;&#8230;woah, sounds like you had already decided to hate on it if you&#8217;re writing notes at the back just as we started to talk. If you&#8217;d listened to the introduction you maybe couldn&#8217;t have made such sweeping assumptions such as we were &#8220;full time activists&#8221;. Maybe instead you would have thought, oh, she&#8217;s just said she&#8217;s a working mother, she&#8217;s fitting in this workshop on her spare sunday, i won&#8217;t expect her to have spent months preparing the perfect workshop&#8221;&#8230;.cos, you know, there is a lot of room for imperfection and uncertainty and inexpertise. what i feel a lot less tolerant of are comments such as  &#8220;people who can be “full-time activists”, and who have the social/cultural capital to get their boring articles published and then to – without challenge – deliver staggeringly lousy “workshops.”&#8221;. Because that&#8217;s using something completely fabricated in order to try to win points to win an argument&#8230;.via your published article on a blog (which entails a different amount of social/cultural capital and in many ways is less likely to be challenged.)<br />
Indeed, we were challenged. which is of course fine. We were challenged on the ideas we were presenting, which, somehow, almost unfathomably, was missed by you. We do put it a lot better in print though, because it&#8217;s a medium I feel a lot more comfortable in, it&#8217;s a different sort of &#8220;privilege&#8221; to think and feel quickly on your feet. In fact, you relate to it in your comments and the fact you didn&#8217;t challenge us at the time but wrote angry notes to your friend then angry posts ages later. I&#8217;m not sure how you knew the article was dire without reading it. Maybe in the way you knew we were full time activists and knew what we were trying to do in the workshop. That way being, basically, wrong.<br />
The spectrum thing was a gamble. As I said, it&#8217;s ok to gamble sometimes isn&#8217;t it? To try new ways of doing workshops. Again, it seems this misfired with you. I&#8217;m pleased that most people we spoke to afterwards understood it. You say &#8220;Fuck me if it isn’t the most pointless (actually, actively counter-productive) tokenistic and nonsensical spectrum of all time.<br />
We were to put ourselves on a line of “privilege” from least to most. That’s it. No then “talk to the person you’re nearest”. No problematising of the concept of privilege. No other spectra. Nothing.&#8221;<br />
Well, this was exactly the point we were making. So you DID get the point, but only because you thought you were criticising what we were trying to do. So I guess that it did work in some way. What we were illustrating was the tokenism and nonsense of the concept of privilege. It was MEANT to be a piss take, and to demonstrate this pointless endeavour. Our article is all about the problematising of the concept of privilege and the importance of intersectionality. What we feel we are seeing in much of the non-hierarchical movement (that you increasingly have no time for, maybe for similar reasons) is a simplification of politics and a fascination with point scoring for oppression. The workshop you suggest is an interesting take on the sort we are increasingly seeing, which are obsessed with trigger warnings and internal dynamics of mundane categories of power, and less about understanding capital and our multifaceted and multilayered resistances to it.<br />
So, again, thanks for taking the time to think about what you thought we were presenting. I look forward to your response to our actual article when you read it. And I&#8217;m genuinely appreciative of the Kurt Vonnegut references in your text.<br />
For love and Revolution.</p>
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		<title>By: Adrian Segar (@ASegar)</title>
		<link>http://dwighttowers.wordpress.com/2012/10/11/heart-breakingly-inept-privilege-discussion/#comment-5332</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Adrian Segar (@ASegar)]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Oct 2012 11:32:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dwighttowers.wordpress.com/?p=5441#comment-5332</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Perhaps persistently stage your own &quot;very small-group&quot; events? Over time, if people like them they won&#039;t be so small any more. ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps persistently stage your own &#8220;very small-group&#8221; events? Over time, if people like them they won&#8217;t be so small any more. </p>
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		<title>By: dwighttowers</title>
		<link>http://dwighttowers.wordpress.com/2012/10/11/heart-breakingly-inept-privilege-discussion/#comment-5325</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[dwighttowers]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Oct 2012 15:59:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dwighttowers.wordpress.com/?p=5441#comment-5325</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You&#039;re right, I should do this stuff more.  Part of the problem is, Adrian, that because I am blunt to the point of rudeness with the people who make the decisions about who gets to do what workshop where, I tend not to get invited to do stuff.  My concepts - like the smugosphere, and &quot;ego-fodder&quot; really irritate some people (as do I more generally).  So, when I stage events, they are very small-group etc etc.  When I go to other people&#039;s events, I seethe about the &quot;people at the front playing comment tennis with their friends in the audience&quot; ness.  And then I go home and imagine how it COULD be done...  So it goes.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re right, I should do this stuff more.  Part of the problem is, Adrian, that because I am blunt to the point of rudeness with the people who make the decisions about who gets to do what workshop where, I tend not to get invited to do stuff.  My concepts &#8211; like the smugosphere, and &#8220;ego-fodder&#8221; really irritate some people (as do I more generally).  So, when I stage events, they are very small-group etc etc.  When I go to other people&#8217;s events, I seethe about the &#8220;people at the front playing comment tennis with their friends in the audience&#8221; ness.  And then I go home and imagine how it COULD be done&#8230;  So it goes.</p>
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		<title>By: Adrian Segar (@ASegar)</title>
		<link>http://dwighttowers.wordpress.com/2012/10/11/heart-breakingly-inept-privilege-discussion/#comment-5323</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Adrian Segar (@ASegar)]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Oct 2012 13:11:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dwighttowers.wordpress.com/?p=5441#comment-5323</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You have good ideas. When are you going to do some of them?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You have good ideas. When are you going to do some of them?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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